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	<title>Comments on: Long Winded</title>
	<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/</link>
	<description>A forum for discussing poems and poetry</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Blutus Maximus</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-3885</link>
		<author>Blutus Maximus</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 05:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-3885</guid>
		<description>The depreciation toward life, on the grand scale, is very dominating; that is, until attention is redirected by the closing lines.  The ideas presented are well lit by a flicker of hope between commas.  A sense of worth and courage is given to the Common Man's image, but to some extent, the virtues can only be true if the knowledge of this poem is applied to the individual.  The individual then feeds into the masses, which in turn changes the course of, the more generalized, Common Man; a macrocosmic character.
So, is it outright in the poem's language and style that this represents a Marxist approach, or is it merely a forebearing message?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The depreciation toward life, on the grand scale, is very dominating; that is, until attention is redirected by the closing lines.  The ideas presented are well lit by a flicker of hope between commas.  A sense of worth and courage is given to the Common Man&#8217;s image, but to some extent, the virtues can only be true if the knowledge of this poem is applied to the individual.  The individual then feeds into the masses, which in turn changes the course of, the more generalized, Common Man; a macrocosmic character.<br />
So, is it outright in the poem&#8217;s language and style that this represents a Marxist approach, or is it merely a forebearing message?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-484</link>
		<author>Alan</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2005 11:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-484</guid>
		<description>I love and hate the article that Brian linked too. Cool observations but far too matter of fact.

- Perhaps you have wondered my the innocent suffer in God's world? Well, the Swahili for "innocent" is "moogaboog" which is a play on "mookapoog," which means "ouch." That settles that.

Back to Nemerov, though. I think the movement at the end of the poem is toward linking the 'blabbing-ness' of man's speech to something more eternal and profound. Nemerov plays with the idea that all the controlled exhalation of speech is linked to the mysterious source of breath. The allusion to John is there because Nemerov wants to import that very poetic and powerful notion of the Evangelist that God is the Word... that somehow words (or words + all the other senses of logos) are deserving of the supreme elevation that "In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was God" affords them. 

Let me go even further with this-- man is caught up in the eternal act of God creating the world. I believe it was Augustine who had the idea that the Word mentioned in John is something that is still, ever,  being uttered; the utterance is the unfolding of time. Mankind participates in this unfolding creation because &lt;em&gt;his&lt;/em&gt; words are also &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt; Word. But, of course, the unfolding of creation is not working out so well in many ways. Man's role is not,  as it might have been in Eden,  just to be the vessel of God's word but to suffer... to some end one can hope. So, man, by his privileged participation in the work of the Word must fall, must eat the apple, must live with the world as it is. I still contend that this is both burden and opportunity. 

Brian - kudos again, this time on your Miltonian syntax. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love and hate the article that Brian linked too. Cool observations but far too matter of fact.</p>
<p>- Perhaps you have wondered my the innocent suffer in God&#8217;s world? Well, the Swahili for &#8220;innocent&#8221; is &#8220;moogaboog&#8221; which is a play on &#8220;mookapoog,&#8221; which means &#8220;ouch.&#8221; That settles that.</p>
<p>Back to Nemerov, though. I think the movement at the end of the poem is toward linking the &#8216;blabbing-ness&#8217; of man&#8217;s speech to something more eternal and profound. Nemerov plays with the idea that all the controlled exhalation of speech is linked to the mysterious source of breath. The allusion to John is there because Nemerov wants to import that very poetic and powerful notion of the Evangelist that God is the Word&#8230; that somehow words (or words + all the other senses of logos) are deserving of the supreme elevation that &#8220;In the beginning was the Word&#8230; and the Word was God&#8221; affords them. </p>
<p>Let me go even further with this&#8211; man is caught up in the eternal act of God creating the world. I believe it was Augustine who had the idea that the Word mentioned in John is something that is still, ever,  being uttered; the utterance is the unfolding of time. Mankind participates in this unfolding creation because <em>his</em> words are also <em>the</em> Word. But, of course, the unfolding of creation is not working out so well in many ways. Man&#8217;s role is not,  as it might have been in Eden,  just to be the vessel of God&#8217;s word but to suffer&#8230; to some end one can hope. So, man, by his privileged participation in the work of the Word must fall, must eat the apple, must live with the world as it is. I still contend that this is both burden and opportunity. </p>
<p>Brian - kudos again, this time on your Miltonian syntax.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-475</link>
		<author>Brian</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-475</guid>
		<description>Well, I should have seen this coming. Apparently, the &lt;a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3914/is_200309/ai_n9280404" rel="nofollow"&gt;whole apple thing is a Latin pun&lt;/a&gt;. So it would predate Milton.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I should have seen this coming. Apparently, the <a href="http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3914/is_200309/ai_n9280404" rel="nofollow">whole apple thing is a Latin pun</a>. So it would predate Milton.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-473</link>
		<author>Brian</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-473</guid>
		<description>The apple, I believe, is usually attributed to Milton.
From Paradise Lost, Book X, Lines 460-493:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
"Thrones, Dominations, Princedoms, Virtues, Powers! 
For in possession such, not only of right, 
I call ye and declare ye now, return'd 
Successful beyond hope, to lead ye forth 
Triumphant out of this infernal pit 
Abominable, accurs'd, the house of woe, 
And dungeon of our tyrant! Now possess 
As lords a spacious World, to our native Heaven 
Little inferior, by my adventure hard 
With peril great achiev'd. Long were to tell 
What I have done, what suffer'd, with what pain 
Voyag'd th' unreal, vast, unbounded Deep 
Of horrible confusion--over which 
By Sin and Death a broad way now is pav'd, 
To expedite your glorious march; but I 
Toil'd out my uncouth passage, forc'd to ride 
Th' untractable Abyss, plung'd in the womb 
Of unoriginal Night and Chaos wild, 
That, jealous of their secrets, fiercely oppos'd 
My journey strange, with clamorous uproar 
Protesting Fate supreme; thence how I found 
The new-created World, which fame in Heav'n 
Long had foretold, a fabric wonderful, 
Of absolute perfection; therein Man 
Plac'd in a Paradise, by our exile 
Made happy. Him by fraud I have seduc'd 
From his Creator, and, the more to increase 
Your wonder, with an apple! He, thereat 
Offended--worth your laughter!--hath giv'n up 
Both his beloved Man and all his World 
To Sin and Death a prey, and so to us, 
Without our hazard, labour, or alarm, 
To range in, and to dwell, and over Man 
To rule, as over all he should have rul'd. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Milton has Satan enter the serpent in &lt;i&gt;Paradise Lost&lt;/i&gt;. From Book 9, lines 74-96: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;
In with the river sunk, and with it rose
Satan involved in rising mist, then sought
Where to lie hid; sea he had searched and land
From Eden over Pontus, and the pool
Maeotis, up beyond the river Ob;
Downward as far antarctic; and in length
West from Orontes to the ocean barred
At Darien, thence to the land where flows
Ganges and Indus: thus the orb he roamed
With narrow search; and with inspection deep
Considered every creature, which of all 
Most opportune might serve his wiles, and found
The serpent subtlest beast of all the field.
Him after long debate, irresolute
Of thoughts revolved, his final sentence chose
Fit vessel, fittest imp of fraud, in whom
To enter, and his dark suggestions hide
From sharpest sight: for in the wily snake, 
whatever sleights none would suspicious mark
As from his wit and native subtlety
Proceeding, which in other beasts observed
Doubt might beget of diabolic pow'r
Active within beyond the sense of brute.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I can't say whether Milton was the originator of either of these. I'd be surprised if no one had Satanized the serpent prior to Miton. But the apple I can believe no one had bothered with previous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The apple, I believe, is usually attributed to Milton.<br />
From Paradise Lost, Book X, Lines 460-493:</p>
<blockquote><p>
&#8220;Thrones, Dominations, Princedoms, Virtues, Powers!<br />
For in possession such, not only of right,<br />
I call ye and declare ye now, return&#8217;d<br />
Successful beyond hope, to lead ye forth<br />
Triumphant out of this infernal pit<br />
Abominable, accurs&#8217;d, the house of woe,<br />
And dungeon of our tyrant! Now possess<br />
As lords a spacious World, to our native Heaven<br />
Little inferior, by my adventure hard<br />
With peril great achiev&#8217;d. Long were to tell<br />
What I have done, what suffer&#8217;d, with what pain<br />
Voyag&#8217;d th&#8217; unreal, vast, unbounded Deep<br />
Of horrible confusion&#8211;over which<br />
By Sin and Death a broad way now is pav&#8217;d,<br />
To expedite your glorious march; but I<br />
Toil&#8217;d out my uncouth passage, forc&#8217;d to ride<br />
Th&#8217; untractable Abyss, plung&#8217;d in the womb<br />
Of unoriginal Night and Chaos wild,<br />
That, jealous of their secrets, fiercely oppos&#8217;d<br />
My journey strange, with clamorous uproar<br />
Protesting Fate supreme; thence how I found<br />
The new-created World, which fame in Heav&#8217;n<br />
Long had foretold, a fabric wonderful,<br />
Of absolute perfection; therein Man<br />
Plac&#8217;d in a Paradise, by our exile<br />
Made happy. Him by fraud I have seduc&#8217;d<br />
From his Creator, and, the more to increase<br />
Your wonder, with an apple! He, thereat<br />
Offended&#8211;worth your laughter!&#8211;hath giv&#8217;n up<br />
Both his beloved Man and all his World<br />
To Sin and Death a prey, and so to us,<br />
Without our hazard, labour, or alarm,<br />
To range in, and to dwell, and over Man<br />
To rule, as over all he should have rul&#8217;d.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Milton has Satan enter the serpent in <i>Paradise Lost</i>. From Book 9, lines 74-96: </p>
<blockquote><p>
In with the river sunk, and with it rose<br />
Satan involved in rising mist, then sought<br />
Where to lie hid; sea he had searched and land<br />
From Eden over Pontus, and the pool<br />
Maeotis, up beyond the river Ob;<br />
Downward as far antarctic; and in length<br />
West from Orontes to the ocean barred<br />
At Darien, thence to the land where flows<br />
Ganges and Indus: thus the orb he roamed<br />
With narrow search; and with inspection deep<br />
Considered every creature, which of all<br />
Most opportune might serve his wiles, and found<br />
The serpent subtlest beast of all the field.<br />
Him after long debate, irresolute<br />
Of thoughts revolved, his final sentence chose<br />
Fit vessel, fittest imp of fraud, in whom<br />
To enter, and his dark suggestions hide<br />
From sharpest sight: for in the wily snake,<br />
whatever sleights none would suspicious mark<br />
As from his wit and native subtlety<br />
Proceeding, which in other beasts observed<br />
Doubt might beget of diabolic pow&#8217;r<br />
Active within beyond the sense of brute.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I can&#8217;t say whether Milton was the originator of either of these. I&#8217;d be surprised if no one had Satanized the serpent prior to Miton. But the apple I can believe no one had bothered with previous.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-470</link>
		<author>Michael</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-470</guid>
		<description>Two off-topic questions, as an aside (recall my comment about Voltaire):

&lt;ol&gt;&lt;li&gt;How did the common belief arise that the fruit Eve ate was an apple?&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;In Genesis, God punished the serpent---not Satan, but the animal---for seducing Eve to eat of the tree. He cursed it above cattle, and caused it to crawl on its belly. He also put enmity between the serpent and the woman, and their respective seeds: the serpent is doomed forever to be stepped upon. Popular understanding, of course, puts Satan into the serpent role. Anyone know how or when that substitution took place? Is it part of the ancient Hebrew tradition, or is it a more modern development? I ask in all seriousness; I haven't a clue.&lt;/li&gt;&lt;/ol&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two off-topic questions, as an aside (recall my comment about Voltaire):</p>
<ol>
<li>How did the common belief arise that the fruit Eve ate was an apple?</li>
<li>In Genesis, God punished the serpent&#8212;not Satan, but the animal&#8212;for seducing Eve to eat of the tree. He cursed it above cattle, and caused it to crawl on its belly. He also put enmity between the serpent and the woman, and their respective seeds: the serpent is doomed forever to be stepped upon. Popular understanding, of course, puts Satan into the serpent role. Anyone know how or when that substitution took place? Is it part of the ancient Hebrew tradition, or is it a more modern development? I ask in all seriousness; I haven&#8217;t a clue.</li>
</ol>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-466</link>
		<author>Lee</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-466</guid>
		<description>Considering the new text, the apple is no reward.  As has been pointed out, allusions to John and Genesis are all over this poem.  Am I stating the obvious then by saying the apple is the fruit Eve plucked from the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge" rel="nofollow"&gt;Tree of Knowledge of Good &#38; Evil&lt;/a&gt;.  I am not sure what how to intrepret the "Word", (which I think is Jesus in John).  Perhaps it is the man's god-figure sitting off in the shadows.  But the telling, making verbal the world, creates the fruit of knowledge.  Death was the consequence of Adam &#38; Eve's eating of the fruit, &#38; knowledge of sin.  Our words eventual do build up a sad world that we must accept or reject.  This knowledge is forced on us through the act of living, speaking &#38; being a common man.  With it comes feelings of mortality, etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Considering the new text, the apple is no reward.  As has been pointed out, allusions to John and Genesis are all over this poem.  Am I stating the obvious then by saying the apple is the fruit Eve plucked from the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_Knowledge" rel="nofollow">Tree of Knowledge of Good &amp; Evil</a>.  I am not sure what how to intrepret the &#8220;Word&#8221;, (which I think is Jesus in John).  Perhaps it is the man&#8217;s god-figure sitting off in the shadows.  But the telling, making verbal the world, creates the fruit of knowledge.  Death was the consequence of Adam &amp; Eve&#8217;s eating of the fruit, &amp; knowledge of sin.  Our words eventual do build up a sad world that we must accept or reject.  This knowledge is forced on us through the act of living, speaking &amp; being a common man.  With it comes feelings of mortality, etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-452</link>
		<author>Alan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-452</guid>
		<description>Brian - wonderful riff on the comma. 

All - "word" was changed to "world." Was it wrong from the beginning of all this? More apologies...  Lesson learned: copy the poem by hand, don't google and grab.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian - wonderful riff on the comma. </p>
<p>All - &#8220;word&#8221; was changed to &#8220;world.&#8221; Was it wrong from the beginning of all this? More apologies&#8230;  Lesson learned: copy the poem by hand, don&#8217;t google and grab.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-451</link>
		<author>Michael</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-451</guid>
		<description>That's not a wrinkle---it's a rending of the cloth! Now I'm even more confused; I fear I shall never learn to read with any confidence. [BTW: I don't have a hard copy---is it the &lt;em&gt;word&lt;/em&gt; or the &lt;em&gt;wor&lt;b&gt;l&lt;/b&gt;d&lt;/em&gt; that is his apple?] I was evidently quite wrong about the restrictiveness of the last clause, but given my mistrust of Nemerov's punctuation, I am still uncertain what is making the wor(l)d into apples: is it the walking, the silence, the balloon, face, breath, spirit, telling, tale or untold Word? And just what does it mean for something to be turned into apples, which one is forced to eat? I can't decipher the metaphor. Why is &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt; tale numberless? Why is the Word untold? Had the poem ended with the simple instruction to behold the man, I doubt my understanding of what Nemerov is saying would have been diminished in the slightest.

I certainly can see a nod to (though not an &lt;em&gt;invocation&lt;/em&gt; of) the evangel's gospel. I am not a biblical scholar by any means---most of my familiarity with the anthology comes from reading Voltaire---but my KJV capitalizes the Word, and not the deific pronouns. Pilate's words also stand out quite obviously. The shadows of Genesis are more difficult to see. Except for possibly identifying breath with spirit (is his breath "his spirit telling the numberless tale" or just "his spirit"?), I don't see them at all. Of course, I don't recall any conversation about bricking bricks, and again, most of my biblical "knowledge" was filtered through the &lt;i&gt;Philosophical Dictionary&lt;/i&gt;. Perhaps that explains many of my reading difficulties generally...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not a wrinkle&#8212;it&#8217;s a rending of the cloth! Now I&#8217;m even more confused; I fear I shall never learn to read with any confidence. [BTW: I don&#8217;t have a hard copy&#8212;is it the <em>word</em> or the <em>wor<b>l</b>d</em> that is his apple?] I was evidently quite wrong about the restrictiveness of the last clause, but given my mistrust of Nemerov&#8217;s punctuation, I am still uncertain what is making the wor(l)d into apples: is it the walking, the silence, the balloon, face, breath, spirit, telling, tale or untold Word? And just what does it mean for something to be turned into apples, which one is forced to eat? I can&#8217;t decipher the metaphor. Why is <em>the</em> tale numberless? Why is the Word untold? Had the poem ended with the simple instruction to behold the man, I doubt my understanding of what Nemerov is saying would have been diminished in the slightest.</p>
<p>I certainly can see a nod to (though not an <em>invocation</em> of) the evangel&#8217;s gospel. I am not a biblical scholar by any means&#8212;most of my familiarity with the anthology comes from reading Voltaire&#8212;but my KJV capitalizes the Word, and not the deific pronouns. Pilate&#8217;s words also stand out quite obviously. The shadows of Genesis are more difficult to see. Except for possibly identifying breath with spirit (is his breath &#8220;his spirit telling the numberless tale&#8221; or just &#8220;his spirit&#8221;?), I don&#8217;t see them at all. Of course, I don&#8217;t recall any conversation about bricking bricks, and again, most of my biblical &#8220;knowledge&#8221; was filtered through the <i>Philosophical Dictionary</i>. Perhaps that explains many of my reading difficulties generally&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-446</link>
		<author>Brian</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-446</guid>
		<description>... and &lt;i&gt;behold the man&lt;/i&gt; is also from John.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; and <i>behold the man</i> is also from John.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-445</link>
		<author>Brian</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2005/08/24/102/#comment-445</guid>
		<description>Alan, why stop with John? We also seem to be playing with Genesis: dust + breath = man, the naming of animals, the tower of Babel. Of course, what's John without Genesis anyway? And it's not like the Tower of Babel isn't playing with Genesis Chapter 1. You guys have had the bricking bricks conversation. That seems like it's relevenat to Lee's point about "turning the silence into a life."

Man: paragon of prattle, tower of babble.

Anyway, it's far from obvious that there's anything especially religious about this. It's not His untold word. It's his untold Word, this common man's untold Word. We're reading in the shadow of John and Genesis, but just the shadow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alan, why stop with John? We also seem to be playing with Genesis: dust + breath = man, the naming of animals, the tower of Babel. Of course, what&#8217;s John without Genesis anyway? And it&#8217;s not like the Tower of Babel isn&#8217;t playing with Genesis Chapter 1. You guys have had the bricking bricks conversation. That seems like it&#8217;s relevenat to Lee&#8217;s point about &#8220;turning the silence into a life.&#8221;</p>
<p>Man: paragon of prattle, tower of babble.</p>
<p>Anyway, it&#8217;s far from obvious that there&#8217;s anything especially religious about this. It&#8217;s not His untold word. It&#8217;s his untold Word, this common man&#8217;s untold Word. We&#8217;re reading in the shadow of John and Genesis, but just the shadow.</p>
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