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	<title>Comments on: Life, to be sure</title>
	<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2006/03/24/life-to-be-sure/</link>
	<description>A forum for discussing poems and poetry</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 12:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hugh Oliver</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2006/03/24/life-to-be-sure/#comment-1867</link>
		<author>Hugh Oliver</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Sep 2006 13:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2006/03/24/life-to-be-sure/#comment-1867</guid>
		<description>Brief, sonorous, and (my having experienced World War Two) touching a deep well of emotion.  But, like many poems, starts to fall apart under close analysis. However, fairly rapidly reassembled</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brief, sonorous, and (my having experienced World War Two) touching a deep well of emotion.  But, like many poems, starts to fall apart under close analysis. However, fairly rapidly reassembled</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://mindofwinter.org/2006/03/24/life-to-be-sure/#comment-738</link>
		<author>Michael</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 07:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://mindofwinter.org/2006/03/24/life-to-be-sure/#comment-738</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;from The Gay Science 338&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by Friedrich Nietzsche (tr. Walter Kaufmann)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
As soon as any war breaks out anywhere, there also breaks out precisely among the noblest people a pleasure that, to be sure, is kept secret: Rapturously, they throw themselves into the new danger of &lt;em&gt;death&lt;/em&gt; because the sacrifice for the fatherland seems to them to offer the long desired permission&#8212;&lt;em&gt;to dodge their goal&lt;/em&gt;; war offers them a detour to suicide, but a detour with a good conscience.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Few people write their own epitaphs; fewer still from beyond the grave. The voice here, the author of the epitaph, may well have been old, but I do not think he was dead when he wrote it, and there is no particular reason to believe he was in any sense a cynic:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;Sovran Maxim 2&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;from Epicurus, as recorded by Diogenes Laertius (tr. R.D. Hicks)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
  Death is nothing to us ; for the body, when it has been resolved into its elements, has no feeling, and that which has no feeling is nothing to us.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Epicurus was no cynic; his lack of concern with death was born neither of bitterness nor of hopelessness [&lt;a id="deathanchor1" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a class="anchornumber" href="#deathnote1" rel="nofollow"&gt;1&lt;/a&gt;]. A placid acceptance of death may not be common, but it is hardly beyond comprehension. Indeed, we may even have very good reason to look forward to death, to seek it out, &lt;em&gt;in order to honor life&lt;/em&gt;. Consider why Austin suggests parting with his love, and ask whether the same might be felt more generally about a life well lived:

&lt;blockquote class="verse" cite="Love's Wisdom by Alfred Austin"&gt;
&lt;h3 class="poemtitle"&gt;Love&#8217;s Wisdom&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by Alfred Austin&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p class="stanza"&gt;
Now on the summit of Love&#8217;s topmost peak&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;Kiss we and part; no further can we go;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;And better death than we from high to low&lt;br /&gt;
Should dwindle, and decline from strong to weak.&lt;br /&gt;
We have found all, there is no more to seek;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;All we have proved, no more is there to know;&lt;br /&gt;
And Time can only tutor us to eke&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;Out rapture&#8217;s warmth with custom&#8217;s afterglow.&lt;br /&gt;
We cannot keep at such a height as this;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;For even straining souls like ours inhale&lt;br /&gt;
But once in life so rarified a bliss.&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;What if we lingered till love&#8217;s breath should fail!&lt;br /&gt;
Heaven of my earth! one more celestial kiss,&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&#160;&#160;Then down by separate pathways to the vale.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Socrates was also not a cynic, even as he claimed his death was a cure to the illness of life. Philosophy for Socrates was training for death&#8212;an &lt;em&gt;examined life&lt;/em&gt; is the best preparation for a death without fear:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;from Phaedo&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by Plato (tr. G.M.A. Grube)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
[67e] In fact, Simmias, he said, those who practice philosophy in the right way are in training for dying and they fear death least of all men. Consider it from this point of view: if they are altogether estranged from the body and desire to have their soul by itself, would it not be quite absurd for them to be afraid and resentful when this happens? &#8230; [68a] And if this is so, then, as I said just now, would it not be highly unreasonable for such a man to fear death?
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The seeking of what comes after, the denunciation of this life, the mortification of flesh, the &lt;em&gt;afterworldliness&lt;/em&gt; of much Christianity also supposedly provides grounds for looking on death with something less than hatred, and cannot fairly be called cynicism or bitterness.

Still, it might seem odd for a &lt;em&gt;young&lt;/em&gt; man not to hate death. However seductive Epicureanism is, it is uncommon among the young (it is uncommon at any age, I suppose), and the Socratic way of life must be developed over time. Christianity is often thrust upon children, but they do not often adopt it whole cloth before having rejected enthusiasm for life on other grounds, which generally only happens much later in life. Situational depression is far more common among the young than is any philosophy that negates a fear of death, and while depression is a serious problem among certain teenage populations, teens are far more likely to die by accident than by their own hands [&lt;a id="deathanchor2" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a class="anchornumber" href="#deathnote2" rel="nofollow"&gt;2&lt;/a&gt;]. Moreover, most people are naturally susceptible to a physiological fear and trembling at the prospect of death. It may well be fair to say that the young are in general averse to death, insofar as they ever give it any consideration.

But this caveat is essential&#8212;&lt;em&gt;insofar as they ever give it any consideration&lt;/em&gt;. Is it really fair to say that young men think life is much to lose, when they so rarely think of life or death at all? In youth, we think death is a fiction, or if reality, it is at least remote. And this error is most fortunate, for if the young had to &lt;em&gt;justify&lt;/em&gt; life, if they had to weigh life in the scales, many would surely find it wanting. You say: "A young man sees the worth of living in the potential of living." How many young men, even in this country, may fairly look forward to anything resembling their hopes and aspirations, should they even bother to have any? This error of ignoring death is a beneficial self-deception.

And what changes when we age? A very few take Socrates at his word, and train for death. Others study the natural sciences and find Epicurean placidity and contentment. Still others find the Cross. Many move from error to error:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;from On the Different Periods of Life&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by Arthur Schopenhauer (tr. E.F.J. Payne)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
When life draws to a close, we do not know what has become of it. Now why in our old age do we discover that the life we have lived is so short? Because we regard it as being just as short as is our memory thereof. [&lt;a id="deathanchor3" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a class="anchornumber" href="#deathnote3" rel="nofollow"&gt;3&lt;/a&gt;]
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And I am inclined to think it error here that moves the voice to suggest the youth thought that life was much to lose. I suspect that it is far more likely that they hadn't given it much thought, and if they had been asked about it, they would have simply noted their physiological aversion to, or fear of, death. The young do not cling to life because they value it; they fear death or ignore it, and if they value life, it is &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; they cling to it.

For all that, it is a good poem, and I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on it. Thanks for posting it!


&lt;div class="footnotes"&gt;
&lt;div class="footnote"&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
[&lt;a id="deathnote1" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a class="notenumber" href="#deathanchor1" rel="nofollow"&gt;1&lt;/a&gt;] Depending on how the word "hopelessness" is read, I suppose this is debatable. Hopelessness, &lt;em&gt;to be sure&lt;/em&gt;, need not connote anything negative at all. Consider the words of Chamfort:
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;from Products of the Perfected Civilization&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by S&#233;bastien-Roch-Nicolas de Chamfort (tr. W.S. Merwin)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Hope is merely a charlatan who deceives us without end, and for my part happiness begins only when I have lost it. I would gladly inscribe over the gate of Heaven the verse which Dante set over the doors of Hell:
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;cite&gt;&lt;em&gt;You who enter, leave every hope behind.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
In any event, Epicurus' attitude toward death was not born of &lt;em&gt;despair&lt;/em&gt;.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;
&lt;div class="footnote"&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
[&lt;a id="deathnote2" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a class="notenumber" href="#deathanchor2" rel="nofollow"&gt;2&lt;/a&gt;] Thoughts of suicide can be a &lt;em&gt;palliative&lt;/em&gt; in depression. As Nietzsche writes:
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;Beyond Good and Evil 157&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by Friedrich Nietzsche (tr. Walter Kaufmann)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
The thought of suicide is a powerful comfort: it helps one through many a dreadful night.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;
&lt;div class="footnote"&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
[&lt;a id="deathnote3" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;a class="notenumber" href="#deathanchor3" rel="nofollow"&gt;3&lt;/a&gt;] Schopenhauer had quite a bit to say about death and our attitudes toward it; here is another minor snippet:
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;from Additional Remarks on the Doctrine of the Vanity of Existence&lt;/h3&gt;
&lt;h4 class="byline"&gt;by Arthur Schopenhauer (tr. E.F.J. Payne)&lt;/h4&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
Does it not look exactly as if existence were a false step whose consequences gradually become more and more obvious?
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;
We shall have the most accurate view of life if we regard it as a &lt;i&gt;desenga&#241;o&lt;/i&gt;, a disillusionment; everything points to this clearly enough.
&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;
&lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<h3>from The Gay Science 338</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by Friedrich Nietzsche (tr. Walter Kaufmann)</h4>
<p>
As soon as any war breaks out anywhere, there also breaks out precisely among the noblest people a pleasure that, to be sure, is kept secret: Rapturously, they throw themselves into the new danger of <em>death</em> because the sacrifice for the fatherland seems to them to offer the long desired permission&#8212;<em>to dodge their goal</em>; war offers them a detour to suicide, but a detour with a good conscience.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Few people write their own epitaphs; fewer still from beyond the grave. The voice here, the author of the epitaph, may well have been old, but I do not think he was dead when he wrote it, and there is no particular reason to believe he was in any sense a cynic:</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>Sovran Maxim 2</h3>
<h4 class="byline">from Epicurus, as recorded by Diogenes Laertius (tr. R.D. Hicks)</h4>
<p>
  Death is nothing to us ; for the body, when it has been resolved into its elements, has no feeling, and that which has no feeling is nothing to us.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Epicurus was no cynic; his lack of concern with death was born neither of bitterness nor of hopelessness [<a id="deathanchor1" rel="nofollow"></a><a class="anchornumber" href="#deathnote1" rel="nofollow">1</a>]. A placid acceptance of death may not be common, but it is hardly beyond comprehension. Indeed, we may even have very good reason to look forward to death, to seek it out, <em>in order to honor life</em>. Consider why Austin suggests parting with his love, and ask whether the same might be felt more generally about a life well lived:</p>
<blockquote class="verse" cite="Love's Wisdom by Alfred Austin">
<h3 class="poemtitle">Love&#8217;s Wisdom</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by Alfred Austin</h4>
<p class="stanza">
Now on the summit of Love&#8217;s topmost peak<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Kiss we and part; no further can we go;<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;And better death than we from high to low<br />
Should dwindle, and decline from strong to weak.<br />
We have found all, there is no more to seek;<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;All we have proved, no more is there to know;<br />
And Time can only tutor us to eke<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Out rapture&#8217;s warmth with custom&#8217;s afterglow.<br />
We cannot keep at such a height as this;<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For even straining souls like ours inhale<br />
But once in life so rarified a bliss.<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What if we lingered till love&#8217;s breath should fail!<br />
Heaven of my earth! one more celestial kiss,<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Then down by separate pathways to the vale.
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Socrates was also not a cynic, even as he claimed his death was a cure to the illness of life. Philosophy for Socrates was training for death&#8212;an <em>examined life</em> is the best preparation for a death without fear:</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>from Phaedo</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by Plato (tr. G.M.A. Grube)</h4>
<p>
[67e] In fact, Simmias, he said, those who practice philosophy in the right way are in training for dying and they fear death least of all men. Consider it from this point of view: if they are altogether estranged from the body and desire to have their soul by itself, would it not be quite absurd for them to be afraid and resentful when this happens? &hellip; [68a] And if this is so, then, as I said just now, would it not be highly unreasonable for such a man to fear death?
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The seeking of what comes after, the denunciation of this life, the mortification of flesh, the <em>afterworldliness</em> of much Christianity also supposedly provides grounds for looking on death with something less than hatred, and cannot fairly be called cynicism or bitterness.</p>
<p>Still, it might seem odd for a <em>young</em> man not to hate death. However seductive Epicureanism is, it is uncommon among the young (it is uncommon at any age, I suppose), and the Socratic way of life must be developed over time. Christianity is often thrust upon children, but they do not often adopt it whole cloth before having rejected enthusiasm for life on other grounds, which generally only happens much later in life. Situational depression is far more common among the young than is any philosophy that negates a fear of death, and while depression is a serious problem among certain teenage populations, teens are far more likely to die by accident than by their own hands [<a id="deathanchor2" rel="nofollow"></a><a class="anchornumber" href="#deathnote2" rel="nofollow">2</a>]. Moreover, most people are naturally susceptible to a physiological fear and trembling at the prospect of death. It may well be fair to say that the young are in general averse to death, insofar as they ever give it any consideration.</p>
<p>But this caveat is essential&#8212;<em>insofar as they ever give it any consideration</em>. Is it really fair to say that young men think life is much to lose, when they so rarely think of life or death at all? In youth, we think death is a fiction, or if reality, it is at least remote. And this error is most fortunate, for if the young had to <em>justify</em> life, if they had to weigh life in the scales, many would surely find it wanting. You say: &#8220;A young man sees the worth of living in the potential of living.&#8221; How many young men, even in this country, may fairly look forward to anything resembling their hopes and aspirations, should they even bother to have any? This error of ignoring death is a beneficial self-deception.</p>
<p>And what changes when we age? A very few take Socrates at his word, and train for death. Others study the natural sciences and find Epicurean placidity and contentment. Still others find the Cross. Many move from error to error:</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>from On the Different Periods of Life</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by Arthur Schopenhauer (tr. E.F.J. Payne)</h4>
<p>
When life draws to a close, we do not know what has become of it. Now why in our old age do we discover that the life we have lived is so short? Because we regard it as being just as short as is our memory thereof. [<a id="deathanchor3" rel="nofollow"></a><a class="anchornumber" href="#deathnote3" rel="nofollow">3</a>]
</p>
</blockquote>
<p>And I am inclined to think it error here that moves the voice to suggest the youth thought that life was much to lose. I suspect that it is far more likely that they hadn&#8217;t given it much thought, and if they had been asked about it, they would have simply noted their physiological aversion to, or fear of, death. The young do not cling to life because they value it; they fear death or ignore it, and if they value life, it is <em>because</em> they cling to it.</p>
<p>For all that, it is a good poem, and I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on it. Thanks for posting it!</p>
<div class="footnotes">
<div class="footnote">
<p>
[<a id="deathnote1" rel="nofollow"></a><a class="notenumber" href="#deathanchor1" rel="nofollow">1</a>] Depending on how the word &#8220;hopelessness&#8221; is read, I suppose this is debatable. Hopelessness, <em>to be sure</em>, need not connote anything negative at all. Consider the words of Chamfort:
</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>from Products of the Perfected Civilization</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by S&eacute;bastien-Roch-Nicolas de Chamfort (tr. W.S. Merwin)</h4>
<p>
Hope is merely a charlatan who deceives us without end, and for my part happiness begins only when I have lost it. I would gladly inscribe over the gate of Heaven the verse which Dante set over the doors of Hell:
</p>
<p><cite><em>You who enter, leave every hope behind.</em></cite>
</p></blockquote>
<p>
In any event, Epicurus&#8217; attitude toward death was not born of <em>despair</em>.
</p>
</div>
<div class="footnote">
<p>
[<a id="deathnote2" rel="nofollow"></a><a class="notenumber" href="#deathanchor2" rel="nofollow">2</a>] Thoughts of suicide can be a <em>palliative</em> in depression. As Nietzsche writes:
</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>Beyond Good and Evil 157</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by Friedrich Nietzsche (tr. Walter Kaufmann)</h4>
<p>
The thought of suicide is a powerful comfort: it helps one through many a dreadful night.
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class="footnote">
<p>
[<a id="deathnote3" rel="nofollow"></a><a class="notenumber" href="#deathanchor3" rel="nofollow">3</a>] Schopenhauer had quite a bit to say about death and our attitudes toward it; here is another minor snippet:
</p>
<blockquote>
<h3>from Additional Remarks on the Doctrine of the Vanity of Existence</h3>
<h4 class="byline">by Arthur Schopenhauer (tr. E.F.J. Payne)</h4>
<p>
Does it not look exactly as if existence were a false step whose consequences gradually become more and more obvious?
</p>
<p>
We shall have the most accurate view of life if we regard it as a <i>desenga&ntilde;o</i>, a disillusionment; everything points to this clearly enough.
</p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
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